Tambuwal will regret all his life if he dumps PDP –Ebenezer Babatope

Chief Ebenezer Babatope

Chief Ebenezer Babatope, a former aviation minister under the regime of the late General Sanni Abacha, is a member of the Board of Trustees of the ruling PDP. He talks on sundry issues in this interview with TUNDE ODESOLA

What is your opinion about the drifting ship of the Nigerian nation?

No, I don’t share the idea that the ship of the nation is drifting. You see, the society must for ever be in a state of conflict. There is no society; whether west or east, whether north or south, America, Australia or the Soviet Union, Nigeria or Kenya, that has not got its own political, social and economic challenges. A nation must pass through a state of conflict. It is the ability of the state to solve those conflicts that makes it a progressive, developing state or an underdeveloped one. So, our ship of state is not by any stretch of the imagination heading for the rocks. We are going to learn from experiences and our nation is going to become richer in terms of socio-economic movement as time goes on. I accept that we have the challenges of Boko Haram killing people at random. These things are mere passing things in the life of a nation; when we get over it, our nation will be greater and stronger.

The former Governor of Osun State, Prince Olagunsoye Oyinlola, has said that he remains the Secretary of the Peoples’ Democratic Party. What‘s your reaction to this?

He cannot say that because the matter is in court. Some of my friends also have cases in court. He may be correct to say that he has a case in court challenging the PDP on the issue of secretary. He can also say that he remains a PDP member. He has the freedom to say that but to say he remains the secretary? I don’t think so. That is not the party’s position. The PDP has always believed in the rule of law. Once the party rules, it is final because the party is supreme at all times. When the case is determined in court, we’ll know where to go because the PDP has always believed in the rule of law.

How do you see the conferment of a national honour on the late General Sani Abacha, who has been found guilty and whose family has been made to return some of the funds he stole?

We must be less sentimental. It does not mean we will remain like this forever. I will only appeal to Nigerians that in whatever we do in terms of how we move forward, we must be less sentimental and less subjective because the man you consider to be a villain today may be considered a hero tomorrow given the circumstances of the country’s history. I am not saying that you cannot criticise. Of course, Nigerians must be critical. During the Sani Abacha regime, despite the fact that we were sent to Abacha’s conference by our own people, we were virtually politically annihilated by our own people. That is why I respect the youths in the country today because they are much more militant than some of us. In the history of Nigeria, it will be extremely dangerous for any group of Armed Forces to take guns and seize power because the younger elements today can challenge the military. The Egbesu, the OPC, the Niger Delta militants and other groups will challenge the military. But in our own days, we were going to jail and coming out. But these boys are saying, no, we will challenge you. Power, being an aphrodisiac, should be handled carefully.

Nigeria’s so-called elder statesmen like you have been around for ages…

(Cuts in) You see, history is taking care of everyone. Whether you like it or not, the biological process of human development will take its toll.  I am 71 now and it will be stupid for me to rub shoulders with younger elements who are 50 or 45 or 40. That is where reality ends and illusion takes over. In America and other parts of the world, age only becomes relevant when the man is not performing. The former US President, Ronald Regan, became President at the age of 69 and he served for eight years. He left office at the age of 77.  Even now, we have such people who are older than 70. The problem is that, if we have alternatives to them from the younger generation, the older ones should give way.

There are alternatives but the older people like you have decided to sit tight.

Conditions are going to make it impossible for us to sit tight. Look at Adamu Mu’azu, he is much younger than Bamanga  Tukur. When Tukur was politically removed by his party, Mu’azu came to the position. Look at the President, he is a young man. But it does not mean that tomorrow, we cannot have a 59-year-old President because at that time, Nigeria may say that they want an old man. What I am just saying is that the biological process of human development will take its toll and when that happens, the elder must give room for the younger people.

In the South-West, the leader of the All Progressives Congress, Asiwaju Bola Tinubu, is seen as a major threat to the PDP attempt to reclaim the South-West. What do you think?

That is not correct. The APC seems to be everywhere in the South-West now because of the disunity in the ranks of the PDP. That is the only thing. I can assure you that we are closing up our ranks now. Everything is being built up to ensure we achieve that. When we get there, we will know how to handle them.

People say that Tinubu is the new Yoruba leader…

That is not correct. And I am very happy that Tinubu has not called himself that. For you to be a leader, it takes a lot of things. Papa Obafemi Awolowo never called himself a leader of the Yoruba. There was a meeting in Lagos and the elders of the time said “You young man, you have been the machine of the Oodua movement, why don’t you now provide leadership?” It was there they asked Papa to go and lead. All those who call themselves leaders are just mushroom leaders. You don’t call yourself leader. Leadership comes from a collection of situations that when they arise, you will immediately identify someone as a leader.

But Tinubu was able to wrest power from the PDP in the South-West…

(cuts in) I told you what made us to lose power in the South-West. We of the PDP were hopelessly divided. We were fighting ourselves. For instance, in Ogun State, there were three groups at the time of the election. Go to Osun, Although there was no group there. But our victory was stolen at the court. That confused us and weakened our morale. In Ekiti State, there were groups fighting themselves in the PDP, the same thing in Ondo. But now, we are correcting all those things.

Are you an advocate of mainstream politics…

(cuts in) I have never been an advocate of mainstream politics. Mainstream politics is all nonsense. When they were talking about it in the PDP, I said no. What is important like I have said when I was asked questions on what to expect in the National Conference, is for us as Nigerians to accept that we are one with the tenets of federalism. If you have a situation whereby a political party is formed and can draw its political strength from three states, for as long as that party is operating in all parts of the country, then what mainstream are you talking about? That a party is operating in three states does not mean that the party is considered to be operating in the mainstream. This is why I have always opposed the idea of mainstream politics. There was a time in the history of this country when a man from Anambra State formed a party called You Chop I Chop. Of course, he formed the party within Nigeria and if it had been registered, whether it won an election or not, you cannot say it doesn’t belong to the mainstream.

What has the Yoruba nation got from mainstream politics.

Nobody can push the Yoruba aside. By the grace of God and the grace of our political and geographical affinity, Yoruba people had contacts with the West earlier than other parts of the country. It is going to be difficult to push the Yoruba aside. We will fight for our rights. Any group or person that refuses to recognise the fact that the Yoruba are an integral part of Nigeria will destroy itself. Up till today, the Yoruba have the majority of towns in Nigeria. We have ports, one of which is in Lagos. People are even clamouring now that there should be a port around Okitipupa and I even think that President Jonathan has said something to the effect that a port will be built. So, if anybody believes that he can harass the Yoruba people, he is wasting his time. History will catch up with the person on the wrong side.

What would you say are the gains of the South-West under the PDP leadership since 1999? The Lagos-Ibadan Expressway is there. Look at UCH and LUTH which is in bad condition. LASUTH owned by the state government is better run and there are other things like that.

Don’t let us be sentimental about this issue.

Or be less critical?

Don’t forget, whether we like or hate Obasanjo, he was President of Nigeria from Yoruba land.

But some people believe there is nothing much to show for his time as President…

That is for him to defend. But historically, Obasanjo, a Yoruba man from Ogun State was head of state of Nigeria. Whether you like it or not, the Lagos-Ibadan Expressway is now being done. I am not saying that the Yoruba should not fight. We should because it is part of the democratic rights of the people. But when we talk in terms of facts and figures, we must be careful how we present issues. Whether Obasanjo did very well or perform badly, the fact is that Obasanjo came from Yorubaland and had the luck given to him by God to be military and civilian head of state.

Do you agree with people who say PDP is a party of money sharers bearing in mind the recent happenings in the aviation sector? Do you feel at home about the monumental fraudulent practices of people in government under the PDP?

I am running a political column in a national daily now where I said that people should go down memory lane. There was a time in this country an American journalist, Jonathan Spieberg, came to Nigeria and wrote different sorts of things about us. But the PDP is not a party of money sharers. I have always asked people; If the PDP is a party of money sharers, where is my portion? Where are the portions of other members of the PDP?

Maybe you’ve been sidelined in the sharing…

I am not saying Nigeria is a perfect state. And I am not saying that all those who are serving are perfect people. The civil aviation you were talking about, I cannot say where money sharers are in the sense that the President of the country has a goal. He removed four aviation chiefs recently. If he is a President in a party of money sharers, he would be afraid to remove the people. The system is corrupt and all of us must jointly work for the correction of the system. If you go to America or Canada, the system there does not permit the emergence of people who want to steal government money because when you do, the system will catch you. We are going to get there. It is just a matter of time.

What is the BoT doing to win the South-West for the PDP?

The South-West leaders are working very hard to handle issues within their ranks. We thank God almighty and the Supreme Court for defending and acquitting Bode George. Whether you like it or not, he was a former Deputy National Chairman of the PDP. He was also a former Vice Chairman and Chairman of the PDP in the South-West. He is an enthusiastic leader who is properly oriented. The man gave his service. With that, the leaders of the PDP in the South-West know well that we cannot fight among ourselves. We have to fight to get back the South-West from the APC.

You talk of Osun State, any person that is put forth as the candidate will be supported by the party; we shall fight to ensure the PDP wins. The new PDP that has come together will definitely win the election. As regards elections in Ekiti and Osun, the party is working to ensure that the PDP wins the elections because we know that when our party wins elections, it would be properly set for victories in 2015.

People are of the opinion that the political gamble that AD governors in the South-West took with Obasanjo cost them the region.

It was part of the whole process. The fact remains that we never gave room to a party that lacked unity. The AD you were talking about, why they had disagreement with their leaders was that they lacked unity in their rank and the PDP at the time was well organised. We moved in and defeated them. Don’t forget that their own issue was different. They went after their elders. In Africa and in Nigeria, that’s something you don’t do. You don’t go against the elders in such a way that you want to humiliate them because you are also going to become an elder. We studied the situation and PDP was well positioned to drag them out of the South-West and we did. It happened to us too when we became disorganised. The ACN got itself together and wiped us out. Now we are getting together in the PDP and I can assure you that with what is going on now in the PDP, we are getting many people now in Lagos to come on board. Good candidates who would shake the political landscape of Nigeria are coming on board. I am not going to disclose much now. Just wait until the operation hits Lagos then you will know that ACN is gone.

If you agree that Aregbesola is performing in Osun…

(cuts in) I said he is doing well, it’s different from performing.

Okay, if he is doing well in Osun, how would you drive him out of power since people might re-elect him?

Don’t say that. I don’t want to disclose our organisational strategy to you or Nigeria.  Let Nigerians wait.

During the countdown to the national secretary election, you felt bitter that you called Oyinlola a traitor…

I did not call him a traitor. I must have used different words but I did not say traitor. A meeting took place in his house and the Osun leaders said they were supporting me 100 per cent. Because I knew the device was not his own, all I wanted him to do since he was very close to me was to go to Alhaji Shuaibu Oyedokun, who is the leader of the PDP in Osun, to ask him to assemble the meeting of those state leaders and speak before them. I would have got up to say he was saying the truth because I knew forces outside him propelled him to say he should be secretary because at that time, people were saying governors should be secretary. Some people were saying that since the President had adopted Bamangar Tukur as the PDP Chairman, the governors should nominate the secretary. That was all my people and I expected but he did not do that. To call him a traitor, that will be too much word to use.

Would you say the South-West has had a good share of positions in governance?

Bola Tinubu led the APC into alliance with a group of PDP members in the House of Representatives who do not want the position of Speaker to go to the South-West. The party decided that the South-West PDP will lose the position of Speaker. Honourable Mulikat was recommended but Tinubu moved  against that. He got some members among the PDP members in the House to go with them to Tambuwal. That is why the Speaker is moving from pillar to post now. He said he wants to be President. I like the young man but I pray he does not shoot himself in the foot by dumping the PDP because if he does so, he would live to regret it for the rest of his life. Having said that, the President has come to the stark reality that the Yoruba people were not given their share. For instance, now the DG of the NTA is a Yoruba man, the Chief of Staff to the President is a Yoruba man. The executive secretaries of four parastatals like the Petroleum Trust Fund are Yoruba. We are still begging the President for more.